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 Scotlands Independence

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willowsend
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PostSubject: Scotlands Independence   Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:23 pm

Can I invite the members of the forum to have a debate and post their views on the Scottish Independence issues

There are many topic's involved in a debate of this nature
Example's, Would Scotland have to join the EU if they went Independent
Which currency would they use
Would there be a border between the two countries
Would passport have to be shown when entering or leaving the country
Does it mean that there's no longer a British passport, in my case would it be English and in my wife's case be Scottish
What would happen to the people who live and work near to where the border might be
An English and Scottish married couple have children, which nationality would the children have

On a personal note, my wife is a Scottish lassie, if Scotland get's Independence does that mean that I am married to a foreigner

There are a few to go on with
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ... s-16779891 Could this be another storm in a "
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tonyb60
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PostSubject: Re: Scotlands Independence   Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:44 pm

Bryan. Could be a good debate.

Personaly I don't think it will happen. As there will be as you say too many side issue's E.G. Currency being but of one. What about Driving Licences, Car Registrations, Legal Systems (Governance) ( I think House of Lords is the top Court still )

My Dad born in Scotland but brought up in London Derry said that it would never happen.

I think Mr Salmond is getting over excited about Oil revenues. The UK top brass would never let the money from that go. They would just put in a longer pipe so that the oil came onto the mainland in the UK rather than Scottish soil. See force of habit I said UK not England. No it aint happening.

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Alfie
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PostSubject: Re: Scotlands Independence   Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:49 pm

Interestingly, a recent 'straw poll' showed that when asked, the English wanted Scots independance more than the Scots did.
North Sea oil is on the decline, it will be all but gone within the next generation.
A common argument put forward is that Scotland has only 1 Tory MP yet they are governed effectively by the Tories (yes.....coalition but you know what I mean). I'd like to know how many SNP MPs there are in England? What gives the Scots SNP MPs (i.e. those with constituencies North of the border) the right to sit in Westminster influencing policy decisions regarding England and the English which they have no interest in?
I voted independamce for Scotland in this poll :)

Mr Alfie.
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sallyann
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PostSubject: Re: Scotlands Independence   Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:00 am

As an English woman I have always liked the Scots and would fight with them shoulder to shoulder whilst they remain in the union, in the Union they are my brothers and sisters, if they choose to end this union, that is their decision, but you are either in or out, there should be no second choice which just suits the Scottish for economic purposes. For Alex Salmond to say we should have no say in the Scottish referendum, I think he is very naive, the English decide on the DEVO-MAX vote not the Scottish, we should vote on whether we want them to have the 2nd option, and quite frankly if they hate us that much, as I said before IN or OUT there are no other choices unless the English vote as well on the DEVO-MAX choice. SIMPLE.
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meandmine
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PostSubject: Re: Scotlands Independence   Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:13 am

This has nothing to do with independence for Scotland. This is one man's determination to change his status as a political nonentity in the UK and beyond today into in all but words the King of Scotland tomorrow. His quest for power knows no bounds and he will do and say whatever he needs to do for personal ambition and gain. His time is over. He is overheard, oversold, overindulgent, and overwhelmingly boring. Many have wanted to leave the UK and have done so only to find that the grass is not greener elsewhere. Have some dignity First Minister, if you wish to leave this country, no one, and I mean, no one will try and stop you.
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willowsend
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PostSubject: Re: Scotlands Independence   Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:59 pm

With the 6 Nations Rugby starting in Scotland this Saturday. I hope the English team have got their passports ready to get pass border control

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villyman
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PostSubject: Re: Scotlands Independence   Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:33 pm

I voted YES. But most likely shouldn't have voted as the question itself is irrelavent "
Should Scotland be allowed its Independence"
.

Scotland is going to have referendum on the issue and the UK Government have acknowledged that it is going to happen, just the wording to sort out. There will be numerous consultations on the Referendum detail until 2014 when the vote will take place. If the vote is a YES and the UK Government refuse to accept the result, then democracy is worthless. If the vote is NO then the SNP will be sent packing at the next election.

The present Scottish Parliament was put there by the people of Scotland in a democratic voting system put in place by the UK Goverment so why should the People of Scotland and the Majority Ruling Party not follow through with the main item in the manifesto that got them elected and the most important item on that Partys agenda.

Numerous Countries throughout the World in the last 100 years have gained independance from the UK and have flourished. After all, if the people of the Falkland Islands (thousands) have the right to self determination without hindrance from the UK, why should the Millions in Scotland be denied the same luxury.

I do agree that Scottish MPs should not be allowed to vote at Westminster on items pertaining to areas outwith Scottish Borders (The Mid-Lothian Question I think but could be wrong).

Other countries have got round the Money, Driving Licence, identity problems associated with independence, I am sure the legal systems in Scotland would be able to cope.
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Blink
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PostSubject: Re: Scotlands Independence   Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:05 pm

Salmond, in my opinion is a sneeky one that I would keep my eye on with his words! He's trying to be the new William Wallace and seek the glory and attention and getting the troops behind him! When I listen to him talk on the telly I just see an ostentatious, over-inflated politician. If I lived in Scotland I would too want it to be independent from but the financial reality would come crashing down and know that Scotland needs money from England. And what's this whole business about letting 16-17yr old's vote?!! What a joke! They know nothing of politics, they're too worried about other things then independence for Scotland, but Salmond's smart, he knows that the youth of today would love to give 'two fingers' to any 'repressing' authority... namely England. Should be interesting folks so watch this space.
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GinaA
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PostSubject: Re: Scotlands Independence   Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:16 pm

So long as it don't cost us all anything I don't care what they do and again so long as they are self sufficient.
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willowsend
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PostSubject: Re: Scotlands Independence   Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:25 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Salmond, in my opinion is a sneeky one that I would keep my eye on with his words! He's trying to be the new William Wallace and seek the glory and attention and getting the troops behind him! When I listen to him talk on the telly I just see an ostentatious, over-inflated politician. If I lived in Scotland I would too want it to be independent from but the financial reality would come crashing down and know that Scotland needs money from England. And what's this whole business about letting 16-17yr old's vote?!! What a joke! They know nothing of politics, they're too worried about other things then independence for Scotland, but Salmond's smart, he knows that the youth of today would love to give 'two fingers' to any 'repressing' authority... namely England. Should be interesting folks so watch this space.


And what's this whole business about letting 16-17yr old's vote?!! What a joke!
Blink, correct me if I am wrong, but I read or saw somewhere that the only people who will be able to vote are the Scot's living and/or working in Scotland at the time of voting, if that is the case It's an even bigger joke
Will that mean that my wife will not be able to have her say in a referendum about the future of her Mother country
Does that mean that all the Scottish expats who were born and probably brought up in Scotland are going to be told, you left our country so on your bike's we don't want your vote
Does that mean if the vote is a positive one that we will have to remove the blue colour out of the UNION Jack, It's a crazy world, can't we live and let live, be :: and all

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PostSubject: Re: Scotlands Independence   Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:46 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Salmond, in my opinion is a sneeky one that I would keep my eye on with his words! He's trying to be the new William Wallace and seek the glory and attention and getting the troops behind him! When I listen to him talk on the telly I just see an ostentatious, over-inflated politician. If I lived in Scotland I would too want it to be independent from but the financial reality would come crashing down and know that Scotland needs money from England. And what's this whole business about letting 16-17yr old's vote?!! What a joke! They know nothing of politics, they're too worried about other things then independence for Scotland, but Salmond's smart, he knows that the youth of today would love to give 'two fingers' to any 'repressing' authority... namely England. Should be interesting folks so watch this space.


And what's this whole business about letting 16-17yr old's vote?!! What a joke!
Blink, correct me if I am wrong, but I read or saw somewhere that the only people who will be able to vote are the Scot's living and/or working in Scotland at the time of voting, if that is the case It's an even bigger joke
Will that mean that my wife will not be able to have her say in a referendum about the future of her Mother country
Does that mean that all the Scottish expats who were born and probably brought up in Scotland are going to be told, you left our country so on your bike's we don't want your vote
Does that mean if the vote is a positive one that we will have to remove the blue colour out of the UNION Jack, It's a crazy world, can't we live and let live, be :: and all

Yes my son;
you are old enough to get married without my consent, you are also old enough to go to war in Iraq or some other far shore in the name of the United Kingdom and die there on the whim of an ill-informed Prime Minister, but don't you dare ask for the right to vote for the person who put you there, you don't understand politics. Yea right.

Voting in the Referendum should be open to all Scots throughout the world, not forgetting 87 year old Tam in Canada who left the Bonny Shores in the 50s never to return. His input will I'm sure be appreciated by the people who where born, work, stayed and still live and maintain a home there, get a grip!!. The line has got to be drawn somewhere and it should be decided by the people who live there, not those who chose to leave "
for a better life"
elsewhere.

As for the financial side, well that is a can of worms. Depending on who you listen to, Scotland is keeping the UK or is it England keeping Scotland. As for the Oil, well it would be Scotlands if the UK acknowledged national borders after a split but its running out anyway as they keep saying so no bother there then... Mmmmmmmmmm it was also running out in the 80s. Maybe it could keep going for anither 100 years, nobody really knows!!.

Don't worry about Scotland taking on its share of problems if Independence comes. When the nukes are sent south and all those people employed in their maintenance are put out of work, the First Minister will have them gainfully employed cleaning up the Nuke contamination that will be left behind, there must be a good ten years of work there. All the hundreds of Armed Forces housing that will be empty can be allocated to families on the council waiting lists. There we are, unemployment and housing problems sorted. See its not that difficult.
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davshaz
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PostSubject: Re: Scotlands Independence   Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:26 pm

Not sure why he is asking does Scotland want to be an independent country . How can any country which is a member of the EU be described as independent?? Independent of what is the full question. What is the point of leaving the UK union (one in which the various nations actually do share common history and culture) to join the EU - which we share very little with. I'm not convinced many Scots would beleive the EU a better 'partner' than England, Wales and Ireland.
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Andy
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PostSubject: Re: Scotlands Independence   Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:22 am

I voted yes.

Perhaps a little history might clear up a lot of the missunderstanding which is evident .
Scotland was an independent country for hundreds of years despite it being claimed by Edward the first of England leading to the wars of independance. In 1603 Queen Elizabeth of England died and her closest relative was James iv of Scotland who became James I of England. This √ľnion of the crowns"
brought peace to the border between the two countries but was a financial disaster for Scotland. Many of the countries with which Scotland had strong trade links were at war with England so any Scot continuing to trade was consorting with the Kings enemies and therefore committing high treason punishable by the most barbaric execution. This state of affairs continued for just over 100 years much to Scotlands dissadvantage and it may have continued much longer had not Queen Anne had no clear successor. The problem for England was that on the death of Anne the Scots were likley to choose a different monarch from England and this would return Scotlands status to that of pre 1603 with the real possibility that Scotand could become part of a hostile alliance against England. The only sure way to prevent this was to negotiate a treaty of union which would bind the two countries together in a political union with one parliament. This was very unpopular in Scotland but was forced through by a mixture of bribes and intimidation so that in 1707 the countries of England and Scotland ceased to exist and a new country of Britain was founded. The terms of the union and the subsequent acts ratifying it guaranteed that the Scottish church would remain independent and that North Britain (Scotland) would retain it's own law and courts.

Now this was all over 300 years ago and the world is very different but this background is still very relevent to today. Before devolution Scotland was a country with it's own legal system but with no legislature. A country governed by a parliament whos upper house has to this day 26 seats reserved for the clergy of a foreign religion. The call to reverse the treaty of union in Scotland is not new but with the contraction of the British empire after the second world war and therefore greater emphasis on domestic matters the support for change in Scotland became stronger. Devolution was supposed to answer the call for better government in Scotland and to defuse the calls for independence. The result of devolution has been the exact opposite. Since the SNP have been in power the Scottish people have seen their lives improved in almost every area where the Scottish parliament has control and this is leading to a popular movement for more autonomy either as an independent country or with greatly increased devolution.
It is a great mistake to think of the Scottish situation in the same context as Wales, Northern Ireland or any other entity. Scotland is unique in that it entered the union by international treaty and it should be free to leave that union if that is the will of the people of Scotland.
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willowsend
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PostSubject: Re: Scotlands Independence   Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:40 am

:Good post:Andy
I run a fortnightly quiz at a local pub and I always try to include a topical round of questions. Being that it was Rabbie Burns birthday last week I included a Scottish paper. There were 31 people in the pub so I thought, for a bit of fun I would ask for a show of hands when I ask the next question, which was, how would you vote in a Scottish Independence referendum, 25 said NO to it, 4 said YES and 2 didn't put their hand's up,
If that reflects the feelings of the Nation, then it isn't going to happen

Andy, you wrote
Scotland is unique in that it entered the union by international treaty and it should be free to leave that union if that is the will of the people of Scotland.

At the end of the day, it's as you say Andy (free to leave that union if that is the will of the people of Scotland)
England :: Scotland

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PostSubject: Re: Scotlands Independence   Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:50 pm

There was an excellent article about this recently which essentially boiled it down to one thing - oil. There's oil in the North Sea and Scotland is closer to it and wants to capitalize on it and doesn't want the Crown interfering. They also want greater autonomy in developing its business sectors. A very large number of Scots want freedom from Britain. But a lot do realize that their economies are so intertwined it would be perhaps more bureaucratic layers if the two countries did split. Further, they wonder what will happen if defense ever becomes an issue. Scotland is home to a large number of UK bases, they can't just all pack up and leave. What do they plan on doing? Converting them to Scots? Will they have a military? Or will they pay the UK for defense? They also worry about joining the Euro, which they view as a failed experiment.

Britain, meanwhile, doesn't want a psychological breakup of the island nor the practical breakup of some of their more productive ports and farming industries, and they worry that more lax financial regulations could break the stranglehold that London has over the Eurozone. They also worry about any loss of the minerals and infrastructure that Scotland has, especially iron ore mining, coal production, ship building, and other heavy industries. Practically access to these resources will not be lost, but taxes or levies that the new government may obtain will put a damper on demand in Britain.

Finally, many in Britain worry that a breakup of the island would effectively cause a breakup of not only Britain with Scotland, but also with Wales as well.
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