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 Yes or No to the EU

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willowsend
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PostSubject: Yes or No to the EU   Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:31 pm

Here is a debate for all us members to voice our opinions. It doesn't matter whether you live in the UK, Bulgaria or even Timbuctoo It should make some interesting reading, and the first thing I would like to ask is "what are the implications involved to UK citizens who live in the UK and have property in Bulgaria"



EU Membership: Reasons For And Against Leaving


There are pros and cons of Britain's membership in the EU. look at some key arguments on both sides of the debate.

There are strong arguments for and against Britain's EU membership

David Cameron has started negotiating a new deal with European Union partners ahead of a referendum on the UK's membership in the bloc.


Here are five of the reasons for and against Britain's membership of the EU.

Reasons To Stay

:: Millions of jobs are linked to our EU membership

As far back as the year 2000, it has been claimed that three million jobs rely directly on our membership of the European Union. The figure was even cited by Nick Clegg during his time as Deputy Prime Minister.

An analysis by Full Fact found that millions of jobs are linked to the EU, but said there is no evidence to show how many would be in jeopardy if we left.

:: Some of Britain's biggest trading partners are in the EU

Some of Britain's largest trading partners - including France and Germany - are in the EU.

More than 50% of our exports go to EU countries, and our membership allows us to have a say over how trading rules are drawn up.

:: It's easier than ever for us to work and travel abroad

Around 1.4 million British people live abroad in the EU, and having membership makes movement around the continent incredibly easy. Driving licences issued in the UK are valid in all EU countries.

:: Crime fighting

The European Arrest Warrant cuts out the need for long and complicated extradition procedures and allows criminals to be brought to justice across the EU.

:: Influence in the world

The EU is the world's biggest market and plays a big role in world trade, climate change issues, development projects and more.

It has the clout to take on multinationals such as Google and Microsoft. At the moment Britain plays a key role in the EU, and leaving would see us forgo that.

Reasons To Leave


:: Border control back in our hands

The flip side of the freedom of work and travel for UK citizens is that people from other EU countries are free to travel to and live in Britain.

UKIP leader Nigel Farage says any attempt by the Government to control immigration into the UK is futile as long as we are in the EU.

:: We could make a large membership fee saving

Like most clubs, the EU charges a membership fee, and it has been claimed that the cost is around £55m per day.

Analysis by Full Fact estimates the figure is closer to £24m per day when rebates and other receipts are taken into account.

:: Institutions are seen as lacking democracy

The European Parliament is directly elected, although the powerful Commission which proposes legislation is not.

Because many of these laws supersede legislation made by individual states' parliaments, some see the system as undemocratic.

:: Other countries successfully go it alone

Many Eurosceptics look to rich Norway as a country which trades with the EU without being in it. It also controls its own agriculture and keeps its fish, rather than being bound by EU quotas.

:: Get rid of any threat to Britain's military freedom

There is a push within the ranks of the EU's leaders for it to have its own army.

The president of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, said earlier this year that it would help show Russia the EU was serious about defending member values.

In the past the British Government has been forced to block moves to create EU-controlled military forces
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bob
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PostSubject: Re: Yes or No to the EU   Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:38 am

Consider who the 'Remain' group have on side; Mandelson, who was kicked out of government on two occasions for dodgy dealing before going to EU for four years and a fat EU pension, going on to say the British could not be trusted to vote. Kinnock, who lost an election so shuffled off to Brussels to tell us what to do, making sure his wife got a cushy EU job as well. Alistair Campbell who sexed-up the dodgy WMD dossier, who is now accusing Boris of scare tactics. Blair - what is there he is not guilty of? Clegg, who'll dip his spoon into any gravy-train going. Sturgeon, who really (if ever she were to be honest, we live in hope) wants 'out' to win so she can boost her SNP break from the UK (hope that goes well). As for the Greens, well, they just want us all living in caves and eating moss along with the millions of migrants who'll get a shock when they arrive to see the cupboard is bare. Cameron doesn't give a damn either way because he'll be on so many boards when he retires.
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BigDave
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PostSubject: Re: Yes or No to the EU   Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:42 am

I have tried to remain open minded to both IN & OUT, but I still haven't heard any argument from the IN camp which makes any sense. Every argument put forward by the IN camp seems to be some form of scaremongering. By contrast the arguments put forward by the OUT camp seem to be more logical, methodical & sensible. We need to leave the EU as soon as possible. If you have children and or grandchildren, you must vote out, not for your own sake, but for the sake of the next generation. The EU is failing, and when we leave it will probably collapse like a house of cards. What kind of a future are we leaving for the next generation if we stay in? VOTE OUT, BREXIT is the only way.
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bigsavak
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PostSubject: Re: Yes or No to the EU   Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:48 am

Mmmmm.....beats me why anyone would want to vote "IN" to an exclusive expensive dictatorship. I lost two uncles (brothers) one in Dunkirk and the other in Monte Cassino fighting for a free Europe. It may have offices in Strasbourg and Brussels, but, it is Germany pulling the strings....we only appear to deal with Ms Angular Mercs......Germany has conquered Europe by stealth using weapons of mass destruction; the euro and the ECB/Troika. It uses blackmail tactics to ensure a £55 million/day and its courts rule supreme........Nothing but a "shady" protection racket..... So for me its OUT!!!!
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pollypop
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PostSubject: Re: Yes or No to the EU   Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:10 am

Often avoided by much of the media and top politicians, is whether Britain gets more back from being in the EU than it gives. In total since 1979, Britain has paid in about €260 billion (£228 billion). It has received back in benefits just €163 billion (£143 billion). From the figures it would seem that being in the EU is a bad investment. But is it an investment? The political advantages to us leaving are paramount. Tony Blair was able to hand over our fundamental rights to govern our country to the EU. This is shown by the EU intervening in our immigration and home office policy's aka them demanding we give prisoners the right to vote. Also us having to let in a certain amount of foreign nurses when we are in the middle of having to make drastic cuts. Not to mention us being pressured to join the single currency, which in my view is an infringement of our human rights as if you can't be in control of your own currency you can't be in control of your own freedom. As is becoming clear with the immanent collapse of the Euro.
If we should leave we should maintain good trade relations by staying within a Trading Union. Leaving us politically in control of our country.
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PostSubject: Re: Yes or No to the EU   Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:01 pm

We shouldn't leave the EU.

Its not just direct investment from the EU, we get access to a huge market to trade with. Members outside the EU have to pay a trade tariff (not sure how much) so if we left the EU, we would get less from trading with them as we would have to pay to export items to them. Because of that, the price of goods would probably go up to compensate for it. So with reduced trade and increased prices, it would probably push us further and further into a recession.

There is also the added security, one nation, especially one as small as the uk can't count for much on the world stage, being part of the EU gives the uk a lot more power and allies. Remember, our only aircraft carries belong to France, without the EU our military strength is tiny, the only thing of any significance we have is trident.
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BigDave
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PostSubject: Re: Yes or No to the EU   Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:09 pm

We would thrive outside the EU. Is there any EU trade with other countries? Yes of course there is. We don’t have to be in the EU to trade with it. Trading does not depend on being a member but on being able to make goods which we can sell to buyers in EU countries. Outside the EU, we could still sell goods to buyers in EU member nations. Norway does, Switzerland does. Some put forward a new 'Project Fear' that Britain could not flourish outside the EU. The SNP says that Scotland’s eight million people could flourish outside the Union with England and Wales, but that Britain’s 60 million people could not flourish outside the European Union. Britain our nation is the sixth biggest economy in the world, the ninth biggest manufacturing nation. If Switzerland can not only survive but flourish outside the EU, as it does, we could too. 90 per cent of our GDP is not involved in exports to the EU. New York, Hong Kong, Singapore and Dubai somehow flourish as financial centres without being in the EU.
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justbazz
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PostSubject: subject   Tue Mar 15, 2016 6:00 pm

BigDave...what you say is probably the most sensible point of view/opinion I've come across, so far.

I hate sitting on the fence and not being entitled to put forward an argument...for or against!...I just had to chip in this time.

You guys have done it before...you have resisted, at least twice, being conquered, over run or controlled by forces outside your lovely country...don't let them achieve it by stealth this time.
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davshaz
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PostSubject: Re: Yes or No to the EU   Wed Mar 16, 2016 10:42 am

Our position needs to be one where we reap the benefits of the common market, whilst avoiding the hindrances of the bureaucracy that makes up the EU. We don't need 'political integration', or indeed financial integration (beyond the common market). What we really need is to get back to the original EEC, with all our powers returned to the UK, and the sooner we get that, the better.

Sadly, with the turmoil of the moment, the attitude seems to be one of 'fully in or fully out'.
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Andy
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PostSubject: Re: Yes or No to the EU   Wed Mar 16, 2016 8:45 pm

For some reason, we focus on explaining that direct cost of EU Membership of £55 Million a day, before half of it is returned as 'EU Funding / Grants / Subsidy' or whatever they dress it up to be, basically we hold out every £1 of British Tax Payers Money, and the EU Commission grabs it, secrets half of it away to who knows where (there's no audit so they can't tell you), then hands back 50 pence, and tells us what we are allowed to spend it on, as long as we stick an EU Flag on it.

Well, this is simplistic, the situation is far worse financially for Britain, because both the direct costs, and indirect costs, of our continued EU Membership costs the UK £186 Billion a year.

This is almost £510 Million every day, every week that's more than £3.5 Billion, every month that is £15.5 Billion...

£15.5 Billion a month!!!

The money lost to Britain is an absolutely obscenity when IDS is cutting £30 a week from the disabled, or our government allows the steel industry to close.

To put this obscene amount into perspective, which amounts to 11.5% of our UK National GDP annually, let's think of why we're in austerity, it's because we owe £1.6 Trillion as a National Debt.

If we came out of the EU in June, we'd be able to pay off the entire UK National Debt in about 8.5 years, but let's not subject ourselves to austerity, let's instead use half of the money we save from leaving the EU to pay off the UK National Debt in 17 years, and use the £93 Billion this frees up to revoke the cuts, and pat for UK Services and Infrastructure, rebuild our military to what it once was, and be the shining light of honour and fairness to the World.

In terms of trade, even hamstrung by our existing EU Membership the UK is on track to overtake both Germany and Japan and become the 3rd largest trading nation in the World by 2030, so if we throw off the shackles of the European Union, we'll likely move into 3rd place before 2025

So, you know what to do now, Vote to LEAVE the EU on 23rd June, to end austerity, and rebuild Britain into the economic powerhouse it should be.
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justbazz
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PostSubject: subject   Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:57 pm

As a rank outsider and one with no legitimate voice in this particular discussion, may I just say that you, Andy and BigDave, should be up there in politics, speaking the same sense that you write on this forum.

Does anyone really believe that Europe...and the rest of the world, for that matter, will stop buying Jaguar cars, Landrovers, JCBs, Mrs Kiplings custard powder, Bisto gravy mixes and all the other fine prodducts that the UK produces...just because you're not a member of the EU any more?

Let everyone just think of the many tons of useless red tape which will be shed...all of the stupid rules and regulations which have no place in a vibrant economy. Sure, there will be a period of adjustment, a few hiccups along the way and that's to be expected...but you WILL get your real identity back! Surely that means something...it would to me!

I'm not a Brit by birth, but all four of my Grandparents were and I'm sure they would be horrified by the current state of affairs.

Sorry for the rant, but that's how I see it....sitting outside, on the fence.
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willowsend
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PostSubject: Re: Yes or No to the EU   Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:03 am

I am so pleased that this topic has received a good response and that the members are still in there if we want advice or an opinion. It's quite clear that all posters so far have said OUT and that is good because the logics put forward are worth listening to

A question I asked in my original post nobody has answered
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PostSubject: subject   Thu Mar 17, 2016 7:48 am

The BG govt has been strangely silent on the whole issue and I haven't even heard any 'chinese whispers' regarding the future of UK citizens in this country.

Obviously, if you leave the EU, the rules will have to change to some degree, but my guess would be that those folk who are already living here and have all the related documentation, will be permitted to stay. Others who may decide to come over, after the date of the official 'cancelled membership' would probably have to play by a new set of rules...similar to the rules which I have to adhere to.

Of course, this is just pure speculation and guesswork on my behalf...others may have a different view and I'm sure we would like to hear them.

c
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PostSubject: Re: Yes or No to the EU   Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:07 am

This subject all beit stay in or leave is very topical. But what is important is for people to vote. Far too many referendums are voted in because of poor attendance at the polls. No good complaining after the event. As for in or out well that is for each individual to decide but as John Bazz has said the Bulgarian government is staying very quite on this issue but this is where the what if's come in the equation. Some say why fix it if it aint broken, well it is broken and David Cameron and his support team have tried to put in a fix. It might be good who knows. I prefer to stay with the stay in brigade but only because I live in an EU Country (BG) and would be governed by EU policy no matter what.

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willowsend
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PostSubject: Re: Yes or No to the EU   Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:42 pm

I gather from the replies so far that members are in favour of OUT of the EU

If there are any members on this forum that want to stay in the EU let's hear your reasons why

I, personally don't know what I want because I don't understand all the pro's and con's and know enough about the whole situation, also the information available depends on which news paper you read
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Yes or No to the EU

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