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 Yes or No to the EU

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willowsend
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PostSubject: Yes or No to the EU   Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:31 pm

First topic message reminder :

Here is a debate for all us members to voice our opinions. It doesn't matter whether you live in the UK, Bulgaria or even Timbuctoo It should make some interesting reading, and the first thing I would like to ask is "what are the implications involved to UK citizens who live in the UK and have property in Bulgaria"



EU Membership: Reasons For And Against Leaving


There are pros and cons of Britain's membership in the EU. look at some key arguments on both sides of the debate.

There are strong arguments for and against Britain's EU membership

David Cameron has started negotiating a new deal with European Union partners ahead of a referendum on the UK's membership in the bloc.


Here are five of the reasons for and against Britain's membership of the EU.

Reasons To Stay

:: Millions of jobs are linked to our EU membership

As far back as the year 2000, it has been claimed that three million jobs rely directly on our membership of the European Union. The figure was even cited by Nick Clegg during his time as Deputy Prime Minister.

An analysis by Full Fact found that millions of jobs are linked to the EU, but said there is no evidence to show how many would be in jeopardy if we left.

:: Some of Britain's biggest trading partners are in the EU

Some of Britain's largest trading partners - including France and Germany - are in the EU.

More than 50% of our exports go to EU countries, and our membership allows us to have a say over how trading rules are drawn up.

:: It's easier than ever for us to work and travel abroad

Around 1.4 million British people live abroad in the EU, and having membership makes movement around the continent incredibly easy. Driving licences issued in the UK are valid in all EU countries.

:: Crime fighting

The European Arrest Warrant cuts out the need for long and complicated extradition procedures and allows criminals to be brought to justice across the EU.

:: Influence in the world

The EU is the world's biggest market and plays a big role in world trade, climate change issues, development projects and more.

It has the clout to take on multinationals such as Google and Microsoft. At the moment Britain plays a key role in the EU, and leaving would see us forgo that.

Reasons To Leave


:: Border control back in our hands

The flip side of the freedom of work and travel for UK citizens is that people from other EU countries are free to travel to and live in Britain.

UKIP leader Nigel Farage says any attempt by the Government to control immigration into the UK is futile as long as we are in the EU.

:: We could make a large membership fee saving

Like most clubs, the EU charges a membership fee, and it has been claimed that the cost is around £55m per day.

Analysis by Full Fact estimates the figure is closer to £24m per day when rebates and other receipts are taken into account.

:: Institutions are seen as lacking democracy

The European Parliament is directly elected, although the powerful Commission which proposes legislation is not.

Because many of these laws supersede legislation made by individual states' parliaments, some see the system as undemocratic.

:: Other countries successfully go it alone

Many Eurosceptics look to rich Norway as a country which trades with the EU without being in it. It also controls its own agriculture and keeps its fish, rather than being bound by EU quotas.

:: Get rid of any threat to Britain's military freedom

There is a push within the ranks of the EU's leaders for it to have its own army.

The president of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, said earlier this year that it would help show Russia the EU was serious about defending member values.

In the past the British Government has been forced to block moves to create EU-controlled military forces
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PostSubject: Re: Yes or No to the EU   Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:01 pm

very good theory's today, great keep up the good work
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PostSubject: Re: Yes or No to the EU   Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:00 pm

I see there is a challenge going on over brexit, this will be interesting. If there is any move to ignore the 17.4 million who voted to leave the EU, the greatest number of people ever to have voted for anyone or anything in the history of this country, it will probably force a general election. My own belief is that the fact that the referendum, and by implication acting on the result, were manifesto pledges, both already have the democratic mandate needed. If MPs did vote against it, they would be breaking the long held taboo of voting against manifesto-based legislation. That will get messy, especially for May.

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PostSubject: Re: Yes or No to the EU   Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:04 pm

You can't give a people a referendum in which you promise that the people's decision will be abided by and then when the result is not what you want and then say - hang on a minute, I didn't actually mean that, what I meant was that you can say what you would like to happen but we (the govt) will decide whether that is good for you! Angry There is no point in holding a referendum if you are not prepared to abide by the result if it's the wrong one.
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PostSubject: Re: Yes or No to the EU   Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:11 am

According to constitutional practice in the United Kingdom, Parliament has no formal role in treaty-making, as the power to do so is vested in the executive, acting on behalf of the Crown. Ergo, there is no legal obligation on the executive to seek approval of Parliament to its proposal to withdraw from a treaty concluded pursuant to executive prerogative.. The European Communities Act 1972 did not authorise the UK's membership of the EU (Edward Heath had already signed in 1971). It provided for the application and enforcement of EU law in the UK. That Act and other legislation will require to be repealed on the UK's withdrawal from EU treaties.
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PostSubject: Re: Yes or No to the EU   Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:16 am

Politicians gave this decision to the electorate by way of a referendum. It badly backfired on them. Politicians have been told many times that they are completely out of touch with the people they represent. They have constantly ignored this and now they are faced with a task they have no stomach to carry out. The vote was to leave the EU. There were no options for negotiation first. Cameron already tried that and came away with nothing but humiliation. The EU made it perfectly clear that they would not compromise, so the people of the U.K chose to leave. We didn't include any mandate for political or House of Lords interference first. Our decision is far more powerful and important than anyone else's. Invoke Article 50 now and do what we have told you to do. We gave you no room to attempt a "better deal" before exit. Nor did we sanction a delay on our exit. Follow the instructions of the electorate before the electorate stop following you.
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PostSubject: Re: Yes or No to the EU   Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:31 am

This is very worrying!!! Knowing some of the ridiculous decisions coming out of the courts these days, I fear this case will ultimately be won by those bringing it. The fact that May is sticking to her guns by not triggering Article 50 until the end of the year, at the earliest, gives this case plenty of time to be heard. I find it interesting that she is prepared to risk her new found fame so easily. Maybe she is banking on people having short memories by 2020?? She shouldn't bank on it. UKIP will rise again and could just reduce Conservative and Labour to nothing. Think on fellow Brexiters and should we be conned out of our decision, we have to make sure we don't forget and fight back at the next general election!!

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PostSubject: Re: Yes or No to the EU   Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:42 am

From my lawyer today, make interesting reading


After BREXIT and its eventual approval by the UK authorities, the position of the British citizens who reside and/or have real estate in Bulgaria may be seriously changed.

If Brexit becomes official and UK is no longer part of EU, the Bulgarian legislation will treat British citizens as non-EU citizens. In the present newsletter we will try to explain the consequences of such change and some of the most important differences between the legal rules that apply to EU and to non-EU citizens.

I would like to point out that the explanation about the differences in Bulgarian legislation for EU and non-EU citizens is only a theoretical reflection and the actual situation will depend on the conditions under which the UK will leave the EU and on whether Bulgaria will amend its legislation to adapt it for all those hundreds of British people living in Bulgaria or having properties here.



British Citizens in Bulgaria: What Happens After BREXIT?


1. Right of entering Bulgaria

Presently British citizens without residency permit for Bulgaria enter Bulgaria according to the LAW ON ENTRY, STAY AND LEAVE THE REPUBLIC OF BULGARIA FOR CITIZENS OF THE EUROPEAN UNION AND MEMBERS OF THEIR FAMILIES where it is said:
European Union citizen shall enter and leave the territory of the Republic of Bulgaria with identity card or passport.

In case the UK will leave the EU British citizens will enter Bulgaria under the provisions of the FOREIGNERS IN THE REPUBLIC OF BULGARIA ACT where it is said:
A foreigner may enter the Republic of Bulgaria if he or she holds a regular foreign-travel document or another substitute document issued, as well as a visa if required.

It means that at least the Bulgarian won't be amended and/or in case Bulgaria will impose a non-visa regime for UK citizens the latter will have to obtain touristic visas /type C visas/ for entering Bulgaria.


2. Residency in Bulgaria.

Once again the UK citizens currently reside in Bulgaria according to the provisions of the LAW ON ENTRY, STAY AND LEAVE THE REPUBLIC OF BULGARIA FOR CITIZENS OF THE EUROPEAN UNION AND MEMBERS OF THEIR FAMILIES as in case the UK will leave the EU the UK citizens will be treated according to the FOREIGNERS IN THE REPUBLIC OF BULGARIA ACT.

The provisions of those acts are completely different as the major differences are as follows:
2.1. Grounds for receiving the residency permit:
For EU citizens:
- the foreigner is a worker or self-employed person in the Republic of Bulgaria;
- the foreigner has health insurance and the financial resources required for covering the expenses with regard to their residence and the members of his/her family, without being a burden to the social support system; the amount of the financial resources shall be specified by act of the Council of Ministers;
- the foreigner is enrolled at an educational establishment for the purpose of studying, including vocational training, and meets the requirements under the previous item .
For non-EU citizens:
- the foreigner is hired in a Bulgarian company and has received a working permit for Bulgaria
- registration of a Bulgarian company and creation of 10 jobs for Bulgarian citizens
- registration of a trade representation of a foreign company in Bulgaria and appointing of the foreigner as trade representative
- receiving of official pension outside Bulgaria which is confirmed by a special certificate of the Pension Fund of the foreign country
- the foreigner is a member of the family of a foreigner who has already received residency permit
- investment of at least BGN 600,000 (about 318 000 Euro) for obtaining of title on real estates on the territory of the Republic of Bulgaria
- you may also invest no less than BGN 250,000 (about 127 823 Euro) to the capital of a Bulgarian commercial company where you are a partner or a shareholder with at least 50 per cents of the company's capital as the company must acquire new tangible and intangible fixed assets at the value of no less than BGN 250,000 and to create at least 5 jobs for Bulgarian nationals.
There are other grounds that are rather specific and due to this reason are not listed above.

I.e. non-EU citizens have to provide profs that their residing in Bulgaria is either economically profitable or that they will not plague the economy of Bulgaria.

2.2. Entering Bulgaria in regards with receiving the residency permit:
For EU citizens: with identity card or passport.
For non-EU citizens: with regular foreign-travel document and a special visa called visa type D as issuing of such visa takes up to 40 days and requires providing of a set of documents.

2.3. Obtaining of the residency permit:
For EU citizens:
- document confirming the ground for the residency,
- notarized declaration saying that the EU foreigner has enough funds for living,
- document/s proving that the foreigner has where to live in Bulgaria.
For non-EU citizens:

- Medical insurance valid for Bulgaria with amount of the cover not less than 30 000 Euro as this insurance should be valid for the period of the foreigner's stay in Bulgaria.

- Proof that the foreigner has where to live in Bulgaria - notarized copy of the title deed or of the rental contract

- Proof that the foreigner has a personal account registered in a Bulgarian bank and that the amount in this account is equal or exceeds 12 minimum salaries for Bulgaria /currently this amount is about 2600 Euro/.

- The certificate of no criminal record issued in the country of the usual habitation of the foreigner which documents should be translated in Bulgarian and legalised.

- Documents confirming the ground for the residency.

2.4. Cost of the state fees for obtaining the residency permit:
For EU citizens: 7 BGN for receiving the permit plus /optional/ from 18 to 36 BGN for issuing the residency card.
For non-EU citizens:
- 10 BGN for receiving the permit,
- 500 BGN per year - the state fee for the right for the residency permit
- From 45 BGN to 250 BGN - issuing of the residency card

2.5. Validity of the extended residency permit:
For EU citizens: 5 years /or till the date of validity of the international passport in case the passport expires before this term/. After expiring of those 5 years term the EU citizen receives a permanent residency permit.
For non-EU citizens: for 6 or 12 calendar month /depending on the document mentioned in 2.2 above/ but no later than 6 months before expiring of the international passport. After expiring of the extended residency permit the latter can be renewed as renewing requires the same documents and payment of the same fees as the status of the new permit once again will be extended residency permit. The permanent residency permit can be received by a non-EU citizen after 5 years of renewing and only under some certain conditions provided by the law.
The permanent residency permit can be received under other conditions requiring additional investments.

2.6. Permanent residency permit:
For EU citizens: A EU citizen can receive the permanent residency permit if he/she has resided permanently for a period of five years in the Republic of Bulgaria and meets one of the following conditions:
1. during the last year by the moment of termination of the contract has worked as an employee or as a self-employed person, has reached retirement age or a ground for earlier retirement appears with regard to him/her and has resided continuously in the Republic of Bulgaria for more than three years;
2. is a worker or self-employed person, who does not work because of permanently reduced capacity to work and has resided continuously in the Republic of Bulgaria for more than two years;
3. is a worker or self-employed person and is unable to work as a result of occupational injury or disease;
4. is a worker or self-employed person who has resided and worked continuously for a period of three years in the Republic of Bulgaria, working as such in another Member State, while retaining his/her place of residence in the Republic of Bulgaria, to which he/she returns at least once a week.
For non-EU citizens: /note: we are talking only about cases of receiving of the permanent permit after receiving of the extended residency permit/ A non-EU citizen can receive the permanent residency permit if
He/she has resided legally and without interruption on the territory of the country for a period of 5 years and for this period they have not been absent for more than 30 months.


3. Working in Bulgaria
For EU citizens: according to the Regulation (EEC) No 1612/68 of the Council of 15 October 1968 on freedom of movement for workers within the Community EU citizens in Bulgaria are treated as Bulgarian nationals, i.e. they have to work under labour contracts and have the same social and tax advantages as Bulgarian citizens.
For non-EU citizens: non-EU citizens who wish to work in Bulgaria must receive a special permit from the Employment Agency of Bulgaria and to receive a residency permit on the ground of this work permit.
Except some certain professions mentioned in a special list of highly qualified specialists receiving of such working permit requires holding of a special competition during which the employer must prove why he cannot hire a Bulgarian citizen or a foreigner from the EU or a non-EU foreigner with permanent residency permit.


4. Purchase of vehicles:
For EU citizens: EU citizens can purchase vehicles on their personal name after receiving of the residency permit for Bulgaria. In this case the period of validity of the registration documents of the car /the big and the small log/ is till the period of validity of the residency permit.
The other option is the foreigner to register a company in Bulgaria and to purchase the car on the name of this company.
For non-EU citizens: non-EU citizens can purchase and register vehicles on their personal name after receiving of the residency permit for Bulgaria and ONLY in Sofia /in this case the vehicle receives so called blue registration numbers/. In this case the period of validity of the registration documents of the car /the big and the small log/ is till the period of validity of the residency permit.
The other option is the non-EU foreigner to register a company in Bulgaria and to purchase the car on the name of this company.


5. Purchase of real estates:
5.1. Purchase of apartments and buildings: Apartments and houses /without land plots/ can be purchased by both - EU and non EU citizens.

5.2. Purchase of non-agricultural land plots:
For EU citizens: EU citizens can purchase non-agricultural land plots on their personal name.
For non-EU citizens: non-EU citizens /even those that have residency permit for Bulgaria/ cannot purchase non-agricultural land plots on their personal names.
The only option is the non-EU foreigner to register a company in Bulgaria and to purchase the non-agricultural land plot on the name of this company.

5.3. Purchase of agricultural land plots:
For EU citizens: EU citizens can purchase non-agricultural land plots on their personal name in case the EU citizen has resided in Bulgaria for more than 5 years.
For non-EU citizens: non-EU citizens /even those that have residency permit for Bulgaria/ cannot purchase agricultural land plots on their personal names.
The only option is the non-EU foreigner to have a company in Bulgaria registered more than 5 years ago and to purchase the non-agricultural land plot on the name of this company.
The only exception is achieving of land plot in case of inheritance.
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varnagirl
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PostSubject: Re: Yes or No to the EU   Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:24 am

Thank you for that info Big Dave

I know none of it is in concrete,,,but Im wondering about those of us who already hold a Perminent residency with no expiry date...if that will make any difference to a new application for those folks...yes I do realise they are issued to us as members of the EU !
and also will those of us that first entered her with a "D " Visa ..many moons ago , have to get a new visa D
its all food for thought
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BigDave
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PostSubject: Re: Yes or No to the EU   Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:15 am

VG I think for the time being we can all sit tight. Before the triggering of Article 50 it should be properly debated in the Commons and Lords, along with government strategy and options, this needs to be done so possible issues can discussed and also possible strategies to resolve them can also be examined, this is the most complex set of legislation that will.need to go through parliament, we need to avoid mistakes. Whether anyone likes it or not the referendum result was advisory, but if it is to be implemented it is going to dominate parliament form about 6 to 7 years.
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PostSubject: Re: Yes or No to the EU   Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:56 pm

Article 70 of the Vienna convention offers no help to expats either

"Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties

Article 70 — Consequences of the termination of a treaty
1. Unless the treaty otherwise provides or the parties otherwise agree, the termination of a treaty under its provisions or in accordance with the present Convention:
(a) releases the parties from any obligation further to perform the treaty; (b) does not affect any right, obligation or legal situation of the parties created through the execution of the treaty prior to its termination.
2. If a State denounces or withdraws from a multilateral treaty, paragraph 1 applies in the relations between that State and each of the other parties to the treaty from the date when such denunciation or withdrawal takes effect."

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Last edited by GeshiSimon on Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Yes or No to the EU   Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:58 pm

The best they can hope for is to delay Article 50. There is no way they can overturn the result of the referendum, that is now a recorded historical fact. The only beneficiaries of this will be the usual snout in the trough, we'll represent anyone in any argument for a few quid Lawyers. Sadly the Government will need to spend our money on representation in court to deal with this nonsense.
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PostSubject: Re: Yes or No to the EU   Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:01 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Doesn't article 70 of the Vienna convention override any effects that the UK's withdrawal from the EU would have on expats?

"Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties

Article 70 — Consequences of the termination of a treaty
1. Unless the treaty otherwise provides or the parties otherwise agree, the termination of a treaty under its provisions or in accordance with the present Convention:
(a) releases the parties from any obligation further to perform the treaty; (b) does not affect any right, obligation or legal situation of the parties created through the execution of the treaty prior to its termination.
2. If a State denounces or withdraws from a multilateral treaty, paragraph 1 applies in the relations between that State and each of the other parties to the treaty from the date when such denunciation or withdrawal takes effect."

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


You may well have a point there? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] this is one of the many reasons I think it will take 6 or 7 years to sort out. so the British government try to riddle their way around this sort of issue.
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GeshiSimon
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PostSubject: Re: Yes or No to the EU   Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:15 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Doesn't article 70 of the Vienna convention override any effects that the UK's withdrawal from the EU would have on expats?

"Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties

Article 70 — Consequences of the termination of a treaty
1. Unless the treaty otherwise provides or the parties otherwise agree, the termination of a treaty under its provisions or in accordance with the present Convention:
(a) releases the parties from any obligation further to perform the treaty; (b) does not affect any right, obligation or legal situation of the parties created through the execution of the treaty prior to its termination.
2. If a State denounces or withdraws from a multilateral treaty, paragraph 1 applies in the relations between that State and each of the other parties to the treaty from the date when such denunciation or withdrawal takes effect."

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


You may well have a point there? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] this is one of the many  reasons I think it will take 6 or 7 years to sort out. so  the British government try to riddle their way around this sort of issue.

Sorry, I have just reread paragraph 1. and I'm not actually sure it would, the text "parties otherwise agree" makes all that follows null and void (I've edited the original accordingly).

But, I do believe you could well be right concerning the time scale, it took 3 years for Greenland to withdraw after becoming an autonomous state within Denmark 1982-1985
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PostSubject: Re: Yes or No to the EU   Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:20 pm

Also, Greenland's withdrawal was only partial
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PostSubject: Re: Yes or No to the EU   Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:30 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Also, Greenland's withdrawal was only partial



Nobody cares one way or the other, with 56,000 people it is of no consequence to anybody that doesn't live there. Did anybody pay any attention when they left the EU? Was it in the news? Hardly qualifies as a comparison. Yet despite this rejection of Brussels, they still rely on significant EU funds for schools, and receive further money from ¿selling¿ some fishing rights." Correct. And let's be clear about this - Greenland relies HEAVILY on Denmark to subsidise it. It would struggle badly to go it alone without this because the population is so tiny and for so much of the year is ice-bound. Sometimes we think the grass is greener; it rarely is.
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